[Character Discussion Thread] Zuo Hong Ye

[clevermanka]

Following doctorskuld's wonderful Jack post with my thoughts on Hong Ye. Like that one, this has spoilers! I warned y'all I have A Lot of feelings about Hong Ye, so buckle up.


Before I dig into her character, I wanna take a moment to appreciate Dianne Lin's acting. Because talk about expressive. She's amazing. And I gotta be honest, it took a good actor to sell a love interest with Dao Yi--not that he's bad (at all! I think that actor is great, too), but he's so understated (appropriately) that it's difficult to imagine someone as driven and vivacious as Hong Ye would be drawn to him. I absolutely believed, it though. The way she plays it, I completely get why she wants/needs someone who has an equally strong will but not as strong a personality.


How is this even the same person?

Seriously, just look at her. She's fantastic. Ok, on to character discussion!

I was worried by Hong Ye's first appearance, on Tang Yi's bed, in her shorty pajamas. all flirty-like. We've all (well, I have, anyway) seen how this sort of bait-and-switch never puts the woman character in a good light. I was annoyed by the "Little sister!/Little Sister?" exchange, but once it became clear that a theme of her arc was breaking out of being seen as a child, it made more sense. I think maybe this scene plays better within their cultural/language context? In the U.S., most first-language-English people don't casually call their siblings "Brother" and "Sister" and since this was only the second Chinese drama I'd seen, the connotations of that exchange we lost on me. In retrospect, I find it charming and it sets up her arc nicely.

Once that bit was established, and we moved straight into the scolding, I was sold.


You think you're being funny, but you're not.

That is not the face or gesture of a woman who is here to be infantilized, either as an actor or a character and I suddenly felt very... idk, safe? with this show. Like, "Oh, okay, the director is actually on board with complex women. Neat!" (I did not know at the time how many women were on this production team). So yeah, this was the moment I opened up to liking her and if it wasn't for Andy Bian's amazing acting and chemistry with Kenny Chen, she'd be my favorite of the secondary characters.

The fact that she's the delinquent who stole the bike is charming as hell. It says a lot about her character, and love that we don't get that information for the first several episodes. The reveal wasn't a surprise to me so much as an "ah! of course!" moment. Very fulfilling--good writing and acting. Also the bit about her eating three bowls of food that first night in the house. She's an opportunist! The girl is not a fool and who knows when she might eat again?

I firmly believe that she would have been a better mob boss than Tang Yi. I think Tang Guo Dong might have realized that and it was one of the reasons we never see her involved in Tang Guo Dong's talks with Tang Yi (that and misogyny). He knew what kind of ingredient she was, and he (rightfully) had doubts as to her ability to stay motivated to eventual legitimacy. Her internal moral compass is not great. As we can see, she's quite willing to use shady tricks to get rid of people she doesn't like. Just because she's doing it because of her concern for Tang Yi doesn't excuse her methods (and I like how we see her questioning her behavior when she tells Ah-De she's done with him).

We see women cops, in positions of leadership even, but not a single woman in the mob in any capacity other than the one serving Cheng Wen Hao tea. That had to affect what kid Hong Ye thought of herself and her value. I think it's the main reason she never forced herself into managing the illegitimate side of the business. Which, imo, she totally could have done if she'd been willing to undermine Tang Yi for his safety. But women aren't even visible in the mob. It's not an option. (And we can all breathe a sigh of relief for that because seriously. She would have set stuff on literal fire to get to the top and probably never gone completely legitimate.)

Hong Ye and Tang Yi
Even though she's younger, she's Tang Yi's protector, just as much as his bodyguards.

Though she be but little, she is fierce.

She's emotionally aware, despite being raised in the mob environment, and navigates the changing landscape of Tang Yi's feelings (and her own) so well. She chides him when she thinks it will help (Stop seeing Meng Shao Fe!) and stops when it becomes undeniably clear that it won't (I'm glad you'll have him here to protect you when I leave). Which brings us to:

Hong Ye and Meng Shao Fei
Hong Ye doesn't like cops (see: better mob boss potential), she doesn't like people endangering her brother, and she especially doesn't like cops endangering her brother.


SEAWEED! My favorite moment from the show that doesn't involve kissing.

There was no way Meng Shao Fei was gonna fall easily into her good graces. I like that she didn't try to seduce him away from Tang Yi (ugh), and that she didn't tone down her personality to manipulate him. Nope. My girl just hires some dudes with bats to take him out. Like a, you know, A Boss. I think eventually she'll warm to Shao Fei, but I don't think she'll ever change her attitude or behavior toward him (and I think Shao Fei will love/hate that).

Hong Ye and Guo Dao Yi
I'm not generally into age differences as A Thing, but it absolutely works, here. In fact, I think it's crucial to their successful relationship. Let's face it, nobody Hong Ye's age is even close to being her peer and she knows it. She needs a partner who is an equal, even if that equality isn't apparent to an outside observer.


Take it and like it.

Hong Ye knows what she wants, and except for Dao Yi, she's probably gotten nearly everything she wants. I think her affections probably started as a crush, and if I were Dao Yi, that'd make me nervous, too. What he doesn't understand (for a while, anyway) is that at some point she grew into her emotions and her feelings didn't change. Dao Yi is right to be concerned about the age difference and power dynamic, though. Not that he minds her being in a position of authority over him (there is a definite non-zero chance that he'd be into it), but it's Just Not Done. Luckily for everyone, Hong Ye doesn't give a shit about what's Done or Not, and she gives him every last chance until she's done.I think it's important to talk about the parking garage confession and how with another show/director/character that could've gone really poorly. We're all over the no-no-no-no-yes game and on the surface that's how this plays. But I think it works here, and works well. Because at that point, she needs some major damn evidence that Dao Yi is willing to fight for her love, even if that means fighting her. Watching her realize and accept that he's not going to pull away this time was lovely and removed the "ugh" factor (for me) of watching him not let her go when she asked to be released.

Okay! There's my Hong Ye treatise! I look forward to hearing other thoughts and observations!

Comments

[clevermanka]

I have NO idea why there are two cut tags. Tried editing in HTML and Rich Text views and both times fixing it fucks e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g up. Sorry!

ALSO! Thank you thank you to doctorskuld and maggie33 for the images!

[goss]

Great write-up! And yes, I too really liked how her character was handled by the creators. She felt genuine and well fleshed out.

I really enjoyed your break down of her relationships on the show, and how we get to see different sides of her depending on who she's interacting with. :)

Also, as cute as Tang Yi is to look at, his character got loads more interesting to me the moment little sis entered the picture. I love their dynamic.

[clevermanka]

Oh, what a good point about her fleshing out Tang Yi early on!. Showing he has at least one close relationship outside of the mob was important.

[thisaintbc]

I don't have much to add in the way of thinky thoughts--I LOVE Hong Ye but honestly you covered a lot of what I would've said about her already!!--but one of the things I really appreciate about her is that I feel like the narrative allows her to be someone who is at times impatient without that becoming some kind of Fatal Flaw. To me Hong Ye feels like someone who is neither being characterized as an "ice queen" nor as governed by her emotions--she clearly feels things deeply and just as clearly usually acts rationally. She's fiery but she's capable of playing the long game--but she'll also take advantage of what's immediately in front of her if she can (like with the food!). Honestly everything about her characterization is so well done and so complex and yet--whole? she's one of the best characters I've seen in anything in a long time, especially in terms of a female character who acts against the interests of one of the main male cast.

[clevermanka]

Oh dear. I...I didn't leave others much room to talk did I? OH GOD I'D BE ONE OF THOSE PROFESSORS. /o\

the narrative allows her to be someone who is at times impatient without that becoming some kind of Fatal Flaw
Yes! Than you for bringing up point I didn't. I love where we see that with Jack and Zhao Zi in the pool:

I can see her thinking How is this my life??? but she just goes upstairs and violently pokes at Tang Yi's face in the photo:

I would also like to point out her comedic skills as well--she's amazing

She's so angry, but she honestly handles it really well! She doesn't throw things, she doesn't lash out at any of the underlings (unlike Ah-De does when stressed). Because yes, as you say, she's playing the long game and she knows behaving irrationally doesn't help anything.

especially in terms of a female character who acts against the interests of one of the main male cast
Both of them, really, if you count her attempts to thwart the romance!

[joatamon]

She's so angry, but she honestly handles it really well! She doesn't throw things, she doesn't lash out at any of the underlings (unlike Ah-De does when stressed)

This is such a great observation! Also she is clearly damned good at being the legit front for the business. She knows her shit, and it's only because of her work that Tang Yi has any hope of cleaning up the syndicate.

Competency kink yay \o/

[joatamon]

This is great meta!

I agree with everything everyone has said. She could have come across as an utterly spoiled princess so I love both that her performance is so nuanced, and that they took the time to flash back to her as a very much not spoiled, opportunistic, wee thief. And she LOVES Tang Yi, which softens them both.

I love that she's ruthless without necessarily being vicious? I mean, she set up Meng Shaofei for a beating to get rid of him, but she could have had far worse done to him (presumably!). And she makes it very clear to Dao Yi that This Is What Me Moving On Will Look Like, Are You Feeling It Yet (the date with the developer dude) while also giving him every.single.opportunity to say yes to her. Plus I think she communicates pretty clearly with the people she loves? I can't remember there being any ambiguity about her feelings for Dao Yi or Tang Yi. (Or for MSF, lol.)

Her relationship with Dao Yi is so entirely my thing that I couldn't believe it was happening as I watched it. HE BOWS TO HER *screaming forever*.

(Oh, man, someone really needs to write the alt version of the story where she's the mob boss who isn't going straight like Tang Guodong hoped, and Tang Yi is the face of the legit side of the business, and maybe TY has to very very reluctantly team up with MSF to slow her roll?)

[clevermanka]

Thank you for pointing out how well she communicates, because that made me think--do we see any of the other characters so proactively talk about how the unhealthy behaviors of others are affecting her (and themselves)?

HE BOWS TO HER *screaming forever*.
*screaming with you*

I knew there was a het ship before I watched, and I was kinda worried about it, tbh. When it unfolded so beautifully it was a glorious thing to behold.

That fic sounds amazing.

[doctorskuld]

I wanted to jump in here and second your observation of how clearly she is able to communicate how she feels and how she feels about people.

This is incredibly gutsy. In a world where women are constantly forced by society to tread the 'too bitchy', 'too bossy', 'not assertive enough' line, for Hong Ye to have the confidence (and not just confidence, for that to be a part of her, part of who she is, as indelible as any other part of her personality) to express herself so directly and unabashedly is nothing short of admirable.

There are so few characters who can basically say to Meng Shao Fei, "The door's that way, don't let it hit you on the way out" and to Tang Yi, "Not every 'I'm sorry' can be exchanged for an 'It's okay.'"

I just absolutely love how clearly both her pleasure and displeasure are known. Hong Ye is not that kind of woman you can say, "You should smile more," to. She will not tolerate that shit. And I fucking LOVE that about her. It feels so feminist, and it's so surprising to see a well-rounded complex character like her written in a BL, which in most cases, has shallow female characters, if any of note at all.

(I also love that Huang Yu Qi also said the same to Tang Yi when he walks into MSF's hospital room. OMG, there are so many women standing up for their fucking rights in this show.)

I would also like to second that I would totally read the shit out of that fic, please write it.

[maggie33]

There are many reasons why Trapped is my favorite HIStory drama and Hong Ye is one of them. I was so pleasantly surprised to see such a fantastic female character. She absolutely sold her love for Dao Yi for me, too. I like them as a couple a lot.

I love that she could be ruthless when it came to protecting Tang Yi (yes, she would be a great mob boss and I wish someone wrote that fic :)). And I understood her initial distrust and dislike of Meng Shao Fei, even though it led to some questionable decisions on her part. She's not a perfect human being and I like that, too.

Thanks for a great post, and I'm glad my gifs were useful. :)

[clevermanka]

Your gifs were perfect!

I wish someone wrote that fic
I feel like joatamon is already halfway there? Maybe we can encourage that like we did with doctorskuld and the Jack-as-captain fic...

[doctorskuld]

SO MUCH THIS. Her relationship with Tang Yi and Dao Yi were actually really good. This is a mob/cop BL full of tropes, and here we are with this fully-developed female character who has real relationships, who feels human, who is trying to protect her family and also find her fulfillment.

Damn, man, this show did so many things.

[bonibaru]

One thing she did that didn't ring bells for me until a later re-watch was come after MSF about what he wants: is it money? She knows cops don't get paid the greatest salaries. She links that back to his mentor to be hurtful, but she's not the first one to bring it up in the series (even in the first episode when MSF and ZZ are exclaiming over the cost of the suit MSF buys & MSF is fighting with TY over the proffered discount, salaries and money are an issue). Later it circles back around when everything comes to fruition with Chief Dad and him breaking the law for money (although for a more self-sacrificing reason than greed) but anyway - she has the ability to find a weak spot and zero in on it, aside from them just having her reiterate a recurring theme of economic insecurity through the series (lol). She is people-savvy and observant and she knows how to push buttons.

[clevermanka]

Thank you for pointing that out! Somehow I forget that when I rewatch and it lands with such a nasty (but not inaccurate) punch every single time. I mean, she's not wrong, and Meng Shao Fei knows it even if he hates it (which might make him dislike her even more).

[doctorskuld]

That's a good catch! I hadn't caught the full circle of that, but you are absolutely right, and that's a clever bit of foreshadowing on the part of the writers.

[joatamon]

It's also telling for her to bring up money because I'd guess that she's very sensitive about money herself. She came from dire poverty so she knows in her bones how bad things can get, and is probably scarred for life by that experience (I would bet that she has a secret hoard somewhere, maybe several?). And now that she's wealthy, she'll have experienced not just the material upsides, but probably gold-diggers and sycophants galore too. (I think it's one of the reasons she loves Gu Dao Yi - he's definitely not a gold digger, and he's not a yes man.)

[her_cool_aunt]

I firmly believe that she would have been a better mob boss than Tang Yi.
Absolutely, 100%. She's far more ruthless and driven.

I think Tang Guo Dong might have realized that and it was one of the reasons we never see her involved in Tang Guo Dong's talks with Tang Yi (that and misogyny).
Interesting take. I'd never thought about that. But yes, I'm on board with the idea.

We see women cops, in positions of leadership even, but not a single woman in the mob in any capacity other than the one serving Cheng Wen Hao tea. That had to affect what kid Hong Ye thought of herself and her value. [...] women aren't even visible in the mob. It's not an option.
Role models are so important. Lots of research on this. ;-)

[her_cool_aunt]

Oh, and I just want to add that I don't have many comments because you laid it all out so beautifully. As I was reading, I just kept nodding and saying "yes, yes, just so" under my breath.

[clevermanka]

Aw, thank you!

[her_cool_aunt]

Hong Ye and Guo Dao Yi
I'm not generally into age differences as A Thing, but it absolutely works, here. In fact, I think it's crucial to their successful relationship. Let's face it, nobody Hong Ye's age is even close to being her peer and she knows it. She needs a partner who is an equal, even if that equality isn't apparent to an outside observer.

OK, finally here's something I'm not completely in agreement with. I don't have an issue with age differences, as long as there's not an equally large power imbalance. Which might explain why I much prefer older women/younger men dynamics in an age difference story. (Plus that's kind of me and my personal kink.) And so I do agree with you that a more mature/powerful guy is the only way Hong Ye could be in a balanced relationship. However, Guo Dao Yi just doesn't do it for me. He's like a wet rag with a limp chin. Even in the flashback to his "dynamic" youth, he's just stood there. So I'm sorry but I don't buy HY falling for GDY. I buy her youthful crush but I don't buy it turning into grown-up love. Sorry. This is probably me being too shortsighted. But hey - at least there's now a polemic and you can all pile in to tell me just how and why I'm wrong here!

[joatamon]

Hee! I am a complete sucker for Loyal and Faithful Retainer characters so I completely see GDY's appeal to ZHY - he's completely solid and reliable, and utterly loyal to her in a world where she could be figuratively or literally stabbed in the back at any moment. He's not a yes man, like A-De, plus he knows probably everything there is to know about her, she would never have to worry about him snubbing her for her background, and he has that Clark Kent appeal of being absolutely smoking hot in a politely restrained way (my opinion, obviously :D)

[clevermanka]

LOL! Far be it from me to hard sell a ship to somebody who doesn't want to climb aboard. =D

I think the reason he's so understated was to contrast him with Chen Wen Hao's, uh... let's call it tempestuousness? And yeah, they might have overplayed it, but he is serving as a sort of consigliere/bodyguard so he's gotta be able to hold his own even if we don't see it on screen. I just sorta hand-wave that because I find him (and his actor) visually charming if not as pantingly-hot as Andy Bian and Chris Wu. He has a very safe face and I can see why that would appeal to Hong Ye.

[doctorskuld]

I see GDY as a very fundamentally different person from everybody else in the show. Someone who is quiet and reserved, but has deep roots and is a well of strength. I can really see why Hong Ye is attracted to that personality, as it is so different from her own. I think he is powerful, in his own right, but you never see it, because his power is in his knowledge of the syndicate, his ability to navigate its relationship, to establish the legitimate side of the business and do the necessary due diligence and legwork.

Anyways, I characterize him as the only person in the syndicate who can elicit respect from Jack, precisely because he is so deft at using soft power, and because Jack cannot fully read him.

[abyss_valkyrie]

Oh this is fantastic!And totally is so like how I felt about her.At the beginning I was worried about her becoming the girl who gets jealous and tries to come in between TY and MSF because why not,right?But then we get to see the sibling-protective thing and I was liking it until she turned out to be working shadily.

But then she actually becomes likable and she wasn't just some predictable character,so thankful for that tbh because female characters in BL shows can be very one dimensional or only there to create drama in the romantic department. Her giving Dao Yi the ultimatum was so perfect,it was like,yeah,about time she's just done!I was surprised by that relationship too and how it actually worked out!

The dressing room scenes were seriously one of the best!XD

[clevermanka]

SEAWEED!!! And seriously Hong Ye, hon, you shoulda bought that bralette/sheer top outfit. That thing was The Bomb.

*fistbump*