Discussion post - episode 9

[yantantether]

Tang Yi and Chen Wen Hao face away from each other as Meng Shao Fei brandishes Tang Yi's birth certificate between them and we go into a FLASHBACK. Li Li Zhen and Tang Guo Dong are visiting Chen Wen Hao in prison. Li Li Zhen has obviously recently learned that her boyfriend didn't just pop out for some milk and never come back, but is in fact a convicted mobster. She angrily breaks up with him and claims to have had an abortion.

Back in the present, Meng Shao Fei seems to be trying to effect a family reunion between Tang Yi and Chen Wen Hao and unsurprisingly Tang Yi is unimpressed. Chen Wen Hao denies killing Tang Guo Dong.

Another flashback! Chen Wen Hao finds Li Li Zhen and Tang Guo Dong dead, but doesn't clearly see who shot them. He then shoots Tang Yi (by accident?) when he suddenly appears.

In the present, Tang Yi is desperate to kill Chen Wen Hao, but Meng Shao Fei tries to reason with him. Tang Yi shoves him pretty roughly and drives away. Meng Shao Fei follows him home and finds him sitting in the bath fully clothed (this made me giggle even though it's a serious moment. Sorry, Tang Yi!) Tang Yi kisses him desperately, violently. Kissing turns into crying and Meng Shao Fei cradles him.



Jack meets with his Interpol contact by the river. He hands over info on Xin Tian Meng and Chen Wen Hao, and then offers to go infiltrate Chen Wen Hao's drug-smuggling operation. I wonder why he does this right now when he's obviously so stupid over Zhao Zi. Does he genuinely think that Zhao Zi doesn't like him back so he may as well go and be dangerous in Cambodia?

Zhao Zi comes home in the rain and finds Jack waiting for him.



Zhao Zi is obviously worried about him, but when Jack asks him if he likes him back he doesn't reply and he ducks away when Jack tries to kiss him. (Jack! In this particular circumstance, maybe waiting till you're not right outside your shy, would-be boyf's front door in full view of any neighbours watching would have been a better plan.)

BUT THEN. Zhao Zi tells him, "When I saw you outside just now it already cheered me up... my heart felt warm."



Zhao Zi is smiling with his whole self and THAT is him making his declaration. They cook together and it's super sweet.



Next, Captain Shi and his daughter are wedding dress shopping. He cries when he sees her in the dress and it unexpectedly makes me teary (awwww, Captain Shi.) Then Jun Wei brings the news to the rest of the police department that the captain had turned himself in. Ah-Zhi leaves, sharpish. Zhao Zi (perceptive as always) works out that the captain's perfidy must have had it's origins in his daughter's need for a bone marrow donor, five years before.

Meng Shao Fei gets up to find Tang Yi cooking and being determinedly cheerful. Meng Shao Fei tries to make him hand over Tang Guo Dong's killer to the police, if he finds out whodunnit.

The cops set out looking for Ah-Zhi, who is currently in karaoke hell with a mobster who he's trying to persuade to help him leave the country. Next up doing unenthusiastic singing in a different room is Chen Wen Hao. Coming out of gangster karaoke central he runs into Ah-Zhi and recognises him as Li Li Zhen and Tang Guo Dong's killer. (Hilariously, I had completely forgotten about this plot point, so I was like "...ooh!" Don't ask me who I thought killed them, I have no idea.)

Meng Shao Fei runs into Tang Yi's house to find him beating up Ah-Zhi.



Ah-Zhi confesses, Tang Yi tries to shoot him, and Meng Shao Fei throws himself in front of the bullet!

Comments

[doctorskuld]

I have to go to bed now (boo, adulting) and it'll be forever until I get to respond because tomorrow is board gaming night at work, but I wanted to reiterate what a shit move it is to leave your buddy in jail for 24 years, raise his son as your own, and like...not even call him up to say hi when he gets out of jail. I am sad we will never know the reasons behind this. (Maybe he did have an on-again-off-again thing with LLZ?)

Also, I love this Jack and Zhao Zi interaction, because Jack does genuinely look like he's going to be the one that's heartbroken if ZZ doesn't reciprocate his feelings before he has to go, and that is such a cool role reversal for his character archetype.

My interpretation of his offer to go to Cambodia for Interpol is that that was the ultimate goal the whole time, that Xin Tian Meng information was just something along the way. And he just sort of went for it, because that's what he always does, that's what he's always done in the past, and it's not until afterward, when he realizes that he might lose a chance at ZZ, that it makes him think twice (as we see later).

More when I get back tomorrow night from board gaming!

[clevermanka]

I'm with Skuld on why Jack does that...mostly bc nothing else would make sense to me. He's not used to being this person, so he does what he'd normally do and then realizes that wasn't maybe what he really wanted to do.

Re-watching this episode on Monday, I'm leaning more toward my interpretation that it's Lizhen keeping Chen Wenhao in prison--for his own "safety," for hers, or for their son, I don't know.

I like the circularity/cohesiveness of the mob boss that Ah-Zhi's been working with is the one who gets arrested in the first episode. I bet that dude wasn't feeling real friendly toward his contacts in Unit 3 after that.

The angry kissing/crying scene is so powerful. And then the calm-but-still-fraught tone of them in bed afterward. *heartbreak*

[bonibaru]

It seems like boss Tang wanted out of the mob biz, and CWH perhaps wanted to stay in - I gleaned this from all the conversations about boss Tang wanting Tang Yi to move the gang to legitimacy in his wake - so that's another possible reason to keep CWH out of the game and away from his son, the next generation hope of the family (both biological, adopted, and gang related).

[bonibaru]

I may be in the minority but I loathe the angry kissing part of the breakdown scene. Loathe it. As a trope it's something that must be carefully managed around the non-con aspects of it and ... just, with the emotional gravitas of the moment, it just feels icky and awful and desperate and wrong-footed and disastrously creepy and OOC and I can't skip forward past it fast enough every time I rewatch. MSF trying to physically cocoon TY inside his body to soothe him, though, I am living for.

If ever there was a character deserving of the "X would take a bullet for you" - "X would take a bullet for FUN" meme ... it is Meng Shao Fei.

[clevermanka]

Why do you think Chen Wenhao was so supportive, do you think? At least that's the impression I got from their conversation on the river front. Was he biding his time, hoping Tang Guodong would give up on the idea eventually? Did he plan to keep his entire life secret from Lizchen if he continued the illegal side of their business?

I gained a lot of respect for the complexity of Chen Wenhao on this most recent watch. Not necessarily for him as a character (honestly, I like him less now), but he's so well-layered. I also appreciate how he, as the physically smallest of the gangsters we see, he's the most vicious/ruthless (that we see, anyway).

[clevermanka]

Ugh, sucks that the scene squicks you so much. I like it because it's unsettling and (to me) unsexy. I see Tang Yi falling back on the violently dominant tendencies he learned in the mob, but finally coaxed into accepting his own grief and the offer of comfort in Meng Shaofei's tender patience and unwillingness to let him go. And then that sad, quiet, "I'm sorry" afterward when they're in bed. I feel like this is Tang Yi's start to relinquishing mob life. It's not a perfect path, but it's a first step.

It's hard to watch, though, definitely.

[bonibaru]

OK is it just me but did you find yourself wondering how Tang Yi got so TALL, lol

[clevermanka]

All. The. Time. XD

Tang Guodong's good cooking?

[bonibaru]

When we were watching it as it aired, tumblr fandom where I mostly hung out was waiting breathlessly for the bedroom scenes that producers kept teasing with trailers and spoiler photos and in their post-episode IG lives. I mean fandom sleuths were posting long missives analyzing outfits and time of day lighting in the previews to try to figure out timelines of when things were going to happen, lol, we were that invested in seeing the sweet love action for real especially since the night after MSF gets out of the hospital turned into such a poignant tease with unexpected real feelings and MSF running off to the shower in a sudden panic. We were primed and ready! "Is it going to be now? How about now? How about now? When are they gonna get it on!" So as that emotional breakdown scene started playing when the episode aired, and Chris Wu was being OUTSTANDING in his emotional explosion, there was a collective gasp that went up from the fandom because we thought this was going to be it, the first time we see them in bed together - but oh my god, is it going to be fraught and violent and potentially non-con and and and - OH NO. Here was a show that hadn't gone down the typical BL trope road and we had such high hopes and were they really going to go here? Really? But then - they didn't. And it was a relief. It was one of the more talked about scenes after the ep aired as the translators and recappers really jumped in to reassure everyone that it doesn't take that path and to transcribe what they said to each other when they cut to them being in bed. So I probably come at that scene with that taste still in my mouth, that utter shock and horror that this show that had been delighting us in its subversion of trope expectations into what seemed like a genuine love story with real character growth and resetting expectations might be about to swerve. I think I have never gotten over that sense of near disaster and I retain that awful sinking feeling every time that scene replays.

[bonibaru]

This is probably one of those situations where watching something live as it unfolds with a fannish collective mind in real time differs from bingeing it later as a unit with no breaks, no sleuthing for spoilers, no time to build up theories about what might come and then screaming when things do or don't happen as expected, with a whole bunch of other flailing people who now have to wait a week with you to find out what comes next.

[clevermanka]

Ugh, yeah, that would be a rough thing to get out of your head. I hate having the rug yanked out from under me. Which is why I heavily spoil myself for nearly everything and rarely watch shows that are still in production.

[bonibaru]

He did feed him very well!

[no_detective]

i agree - jack seems to be following his general drive, and infiltrating the cambodian gang sounds like the natural next step/ultimate goal. i do wonder if he perhaps subconsciously set it up as an alternative, so if things don't work out with zz he'll have a new assignment to throw himself into. he doesn't strike me as a character who gets attached easily, so it might be at least somewhat terrifying to realize he's developed FEELINGS.

[issenllo]

I second and third your thoughts about Tang Guo Dong. I still go WTF when I think about it. Their conversation earlier (and the novel, too) always seemed to imply that CWH took the rap for him over a medium serious matter (I think it's of injuring someone in a fight). He was supposed to be in jail for a few months. Instead: 24 years. And TGD never went to see him in jail again after that visit with Li Zhen, no mention of any more visits. I mean, I'd accept it if there were some record of him going and trying to explain, even if CWH shut him out. At least he tried. But nothing. Can't blame CWH for turning into a villain after that. >_>

[doctorskuld]

i do wonder if he perhaps subconsciously set it up as an alternative, so if things don't work out with zz he'll have a new assignment to throw himself into.

With the type of guy that Jack is, in the line of work that Jack is in, 100% this.

he doesn't strike me as a character who gets attached easily, so it might be at least somewhat terrifying to realize he's developed FEELINGS.

I headcanon Jack as a person who is honest about his own feelings, in the sense that he never tries to deny them to himself, but that doesn't mean he isn't terrified when he realizes that OMG he has actually fallen for that little police cinnamon roll. He has NEVER FELT THIS BEFORE.

[doctorskuld]

I like clevermanka's interpretation that it may have been LLZ's involvement that kept CWH in prison for so long. Possibly due to feelings of betrayal, possibly wanting to keep CWH away from her son, or whatever complicated things she felt at the time.

That said, I'm still surprised that TGD never went to see him after that, even if CWH did shut him out. It's possible that LLZ may have tried to blackmail him over that (i.e. if TGD didn't cut his relationship with CWH that she would bring him up on charges too), but that is less feasible and doesn't make a lot of sense either.

...Yeah, the mob plot in this show is definitely secondary to to the romance, and it shows. XDDDDDDD

[doctorskuld]

I wasn't sure how recent the TGD wanting to get out of the mob business thing was, but if Tang Ye had been quite ambivalent about it the whole time, I can see this being convincing enough for LLZ not to bring him in for a while?

[doctorskuld]

Did he plan to keep his entire life secret from Lizchen if he continued the illegal side of their business?

I got the impression that CWH missed his window on telling LLZ what was really going on, and then it's just...you just gotta ride that out as long as you can and hope?

[doctorskuld]

It's very interesting that you feel that way, because I actually like that scene. There is a lot less physical contact of the hugging kind in Asian culture, so MSF embracing TY when he is upset actually feels like a very tender and caring gesture to me. In the type of household I was raised in (and several of my friends who are Chinese diaspora), a situation in which I was upset and crying would have merited me being left alone in a dark room to cry it out, and sort out my emotions by myself. I would have been left alone even if I would have wanted comfort.

So the fact that MSF recognizes that that isn't healthy, and comes to TY and physically comforts him is actually the exact opposite and creepy and non-con to me. The fact he does this because of the emotional gravitas, instead of leaving TY alone, and tries to get him to confront his feelings and to recognize that TY doesn't have to bear his grief alone is a pivotal moment in cementing the emotional connection of their relationship. I feel like this scene tells the audience that MSF is willing to be equal partners with TY and help him through this moment of intense pain, as opposed to just wanting to see the nice, composed part of TY. That is what I feel when I watch it, anyway.

I wonder if there's a huge cultural difference in the interpretation of this scene, and if a part of why it's also less creepy to me is the same-sex dynamics? I feel that maybe this scene would read a lot more dub-con to me if the one struggling was female.

[yantantether]

little police cinnamon roll
♥♥♥

[doctorskuld]

I am super late back to the party, many apologies!

Zhao Zi comes home in the rain and finds Jack waiting for him.
This scene is so cute to me so many ways, like right from the very beginning. The way that Zhao Zi immediately shares his umbrella with Jack is so adorable, and Jack is very soft with him as they walk up to his front door.

And then Zhao Zi's concern that Jack didn't do a better job hiding himself! (OMG, ZZ, what did you think that Jack did?) My heart grew three sizes at that line!

...and then a little piece of it breaks when Jack asks, "Do you want me to leave satisfied, or with a broken heart" and ZZ doesn't answer, but Jack can tell that ZZ likes him back and is too afraid to say so.

(Jack! In this particular circumstance, maybe waiting till you're not right outside your shy, would-be boyf's front door in full view of any neighbours watching would have been a better plan.)
I am 110% certain that Jack has never gotten rejected multiple times by any person when he is this forward and this is completely new to him. I think he keeps falling back on, 'Okay, if I try it again for the fifth time, surely this will work,' and it just...doesn't. But he does get that much closer every time, so he keeps at it. (Hence why he doesn't leave, but sticks around to heat up some milk and cook?)

Zhao Zi is smiling with his whole self and THAT is him making his declaration. They cook together and it's super sweet.
OMG, that shy declaration from ZZ is like...EVERYTHING. (Also, it's Jack's everything.) And then the domesticity as they cook together? I AM DEAD. These two slay me every time with how perfect and adorable they are and I wanted more scenes of their quite domesticity. *cries over them in a corner*

The scene after this with MSF and TY in bed is super cute. It's the first time we see them possibly sleeping together, and the way that MSF goes to spoon TY is seriously one of the sweetest scenes between them. Like I said above, it's one of those scenes that really convinces the audience that MSF and TY are serious about their relationship, that this isn't just some fling.

Next, Captain Shi and his daughter are wedding dress shopping. He cries when he sees her in the dress and it unexpectedly makes me teary (awwww, Captain Shi.)
There is a surprising amount of complexity around Captain Shi, and I really like the way that the writers spent time around him as a complex character. I'm really sad that he doesn't get to spend time with MSF and ZZ anymore after turning himself in, but I like your idea that he goes to the same prison that TY does, and he and TY look out for each other there. That thought makes me feel less sad for him.

The cops set out looking for Ah-Zhi, who is currently in karaoke hell with a mobster who he's trying to persuade to help him leave the country.
I like that this is the mobster in the first episode (Lao Ke), who is also the head of the Shih-Ho Clan, who was TGD said was threatening CWH.

Coming out of gangster karaoke central
*dies* You know, it wouldn't surprise me if the mob owned karaoke bars and karaoke booths, TBH. I can see that as A Thing.

Ah-Zhi confesses, Tang Yi tries to shoot him, and Meng Shao Fei throws himself in front of the bullet!
Please, somebody tell me how the bullet managed to hit MSF in the shoulder when TY was aiming at Ah-Zhi on the floor. XDDDDDDDDD

Thank you so much for leading these rewatch posts, Yan, I can't believe we're almost done!

[yantantether]

it wouldn't surprise me if the mob owned karaoke bars and karaoke booths
Another way for Xin Tian Meng to diversify into legit business - maybe after Tang Yi comes out of prison he can become the Karaoke King of Taipei (I bet Meng Shao Fei fucking loves karaoke and would be DELIGHTED.)

[clevermanka]

I'm starting to lean pretty hard into my theory that Lizchen is the reason Tang Guodong couldn't get Chen Wenhao out of prison.

[bonibaru]

Let me be more clear: it's not the embracing that I don't like. I love that MSF is trying to comfort him that way. I love that he's wrapped himself around Tang Yi like a koala clinging to a tree. It's the sudden angry kissing and almost biting, the tearing at MSF's clothes, the kissing down his chest while sobbing, that's way too rape-y and very fucked up. I can't think of a cultural reason that trying to initiate sexual contact in the middle of an emotional breakdown would be more acceptable :)

Edited: in other words it's not the ENTIRE scene. It's that part of the scene that I loathe. It wasn't necessary. It was awful to see and to think that they were really going to show their first time being intimate like that as almost a physical fight.

[bonibaru]

I wonder if he really did fall in love with LLZ and she was the impetus for him to finally get off the fence.

[doctorskuld]

Yeah, that's the only reason that feels real to me. I think that TGD might have been torn between his loyalty to his friend, and his wanting to do LLZ and her child right, and I can see him coming to the conclusion that CWH would have sacrificed everything for his wife and their child, so now they're in this situation, this is the only way out?

[doctorskuld]

Oh, I misread or misunderstood what you said, apologies.

I interpret that reaction as an extreme short-circuit in TY's brain because he is in such emotional pain. I get your feeling that it is non-con and rape-y, and I think that the directors probably intended it be like that. It's not supposed to be sexy. But TY is like...literally out of his mind. I'm glad that MSF comforts him enough with hugs, and they don't do anything while TY is crazy with grief.

I can see why it's still hard to watch nonetheless.

[doctorskuld]

Headcanon accepted.

[clevermanka]

That might explain why the two of them were meeting--another "what the fuck do we do now that he's out" conversation?

[clevermanka]

Oh I like that.

[clevermanka]

somebody tell me how the bullet managed to hit MSF in the shoulder when TY was aiming at Ah-Zhi on the floor
The same way it went through his scapula without shattering the bone.

[bonibaru]

It would explain his affection for Tang Yi from multiple angles, and I like the idea that he and Gu Dao Yi were out looking for him on purpose just in case his mother had been told he'd run away. This is all just headcanon, of course, lol.

[clevermanka]

And makes good sense why he'd encourage Tang Yi to take his name because can you imagine what Lizhen would do if she found out her son was being raised in the mob???????

[doctorskuld]

LOL, yes, that, in addition to the "I think my police guys are selling drugs to your mob guys" agenda item. XDDDDDD

[clevermanka]

Oh right! It just now occurred to me that this was (possibly? probably?) at the very start of that business. I'd been thinking corrupt cops selling confiscated drugs had been going on previously, just maybe not in this particular precinct, but that's not necessarily true.

[her_cool_aunt]

I believe this is biologically correct. Which is why second generation immigrants tend to be around the height of those from their (new) country of birth rather than the (old) country of origin of their parents.

[her_cool_aunt]

Can I check - am I the only one here who doesn't think Tang Guodong knows that the kid he adopts as Tang Yi is Li Lizhen's child? I see that as (narratively useful) coincidence.

[her_cool_aunt]

I loved your description of "gangster karaoke central" and I'm completely on board with this excellent resulting headcanon. Thank you! (For this gem and - more generally - ALL the rewatch posts.)

[her_cool_aunt]

I also find TY's angry kissing and pawing at MSF's clothing very uncomfortable to watch but I can believe why it's happening with this character - as per the brain short-circuiting with distress description above. Therefore, although I don't LIKE this part of an otherwise gorgeous scene, I don't dislike that something of this nature is shown. TY is a gangster, who carries a knuckleduster in his pocket for easy access violence and has ordered people to be assassinated. We may be shown a relatively soft-focus version of him elsewhere but he has his brutal moments too. Under such excruciating emotional pressure, I don't see it as unrealistic for him to be acting in a rough and pretty non-con way - although it only goes so far. MSF manages to comfort him enough and things become purely emotional and not physical. This idea of showing unpleasant but, to me, realistic behaviour is something I've been thinking about a lot in relation to the Thai BL drama Tharntype, which has A LOT of things that I wouldn't want anyone viewing as reasonable or even forgiveable but yet are probably more realistic than not. (Some thoughts I may explore in more depth elsewhere.)

[clevermanka]

IDK! A good question to ask--maybe if someone does a post on Tang Guodong?

[doctorskuld]

Very eloquently put! Agree with you on your take of TY here.

[doctorskuld]

It's not at all clear to me whether TGD knew that TY was LLZ and CWH's child, and whether LLZ knew either. It's plausible to me either way, as an audience we never get to see what type of relationship LLZ and TGD had, and how much information they exchanged.

I think one's take really depends on how they see TGD.

If TGD is generally a decent dude, he wouldn't have let Tang Yi take his surname. That is like, a BIG DEAL in Chinese culture. Taking someone's surname means that you essentially sever all ties with your previous family. You are abandoning your bloodline. Married women in China do not change their surnames the way it is common in Western cultures to do. To actually take on someone's name is becoming a part of their family and throwing away your own. If you read TGD as a fundamentally decent character, I can't imagine that he would have let Tang Yi take on his name knowing whose son he actually was.

I think the fact that we're never really quite sure who TGD is or why he left CWH in prison for 24 years is one of the most narratively annoying things in the story because we never get it resolved. XD

[her_cool_aunt]

If TGD is generally a decent dude, he wouldn't have let Tang Yi take his surname. That is like, a BIG DEAL in Chinese culture. Taking someone's surname means that you essentially sever all ties with your previous family. You are abandoning your bloodline.

Wow! I didn't realise this was so significant. Thank you for explaining. We only see a "decent" version of Tang Guodong from the flashbacks. He may be a mob boss, but he's all very cerebral and sensitive. Which makes me think we're not supposed to see him as evil. Which backs up my original thinking that TGD doesn't know TY is LLZ and CWH's son.

I think the fact that we're never really quite sure who TGD is or why he left CWH in prison for 24 years is one of the most narratively annoying things in the story because we never get it resolved.

Aargh! So, so true.

[her_cool_aunt]

Thanks!

[joatamon]

A month too late, hey ho. But wouldn't Tang Yi originally have had the name of his grotty adoptive father, who abused him? Would that not be a good reason for TGD to be happy for TY to take his name even if he knew whose son TY really was? (Plus it was Tang Yi's choice, since ZHY doesn't change her name.) And if he did know, maybe the prospect of explaining the whole parentage saga to TY was just too complicated and fraught with danger to TY's stability & happiness, and to LLZ, and potentially the syndicate. Better a fresh start?

(I have no idea if TGD knew or not, it's an interesting mystery :D)

[joatamon]

Have you written down your Tharntype thoughts anywhere? (I also have a few o_O)

[doctorskuld]

But wouldn't Tang Yi originally have had the name of his grotty adoptive father, who abused him?
If Tang Yi had his name, then yes, that's a good reason for Tang Yi to take "Tang" instead of whatever he had previously.

Would that not be a good reason for TGD to be happy for TY to take his name even if he knew whose son TY really was?
I think knowing vs not knowing is the key. It's really awful for TGD to give TY the surname of "Tang" if he knew whose son he really was.

(Plus it was Tang Yi's choice, since ZHY doesn't change her name.)
I mean, yes, it is Tang Yi's choice, but also...traditionally, no. Children take their father's names. Wives do not. There's a huge difference.

So yeah, even given that, if TGD knew whose child TY was, it would be perceived as a horrible thing to do to cut him off entirely from his true bloodline.

And if he did know, maybe the prospect of explaining the whole parentage saga to TY was just too complicated and fraught with danger to TY's stability & happiness, and to LLZ, and potentially the syndicate. Better a fresh start?
This is a plausible reason, particularly if there was LLZ's influence, and she was pretty intent on cutting off CWH's access to his son, by lying to him about the abortion.

Ah, the forever mystery about this show.

[her_cool_aunt]

I haven’t written down much but there are a few high-level points in this Asian drama post. Here on Dreamwidth I haven’t really got into writing my own stuff, just joining in discussions. However, I did write this post for a Discord group I’m in. If you want to start chatting about TT by replying/reacting to my post, I’m cool with that. :-)

[joatamon]

I like gaps that give us space to speculate :D